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C O N T E N T S
April 9, 2008

Ending Homelessness for our Nation's Veterans

OPENING STATEMENTS

Chairman Bob Filner
    Prepared statement of Chairman Filner
Hon. Ginny Brown-Waite
Hon. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin, prepared statement of
Hon. Henry E. Brown, Jr., prepared statement of
Hon. Joe Donnelly, prepared statement of
Hon. Timothy J. Walz, prepared statement of

WITNESSES

Congressional Research Service, Library of Congress, Libby Perl, Analyst in Housing
    Prepared statement of Ms. Perl
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, Peter H. Dougherty, Director, Homeless Veterans Programs, Veterans Health Administration
    Prepared statement of Mr. Dougherty

Catholic Charities Housing Development Corporation, Chicago, IL, William G. D’Arcy, Chief Operating Officer
    Prepared statement of Mr. D'Arcy
Maryland Center for Veterans Education and Training, Inc., Colonel Charles Williams, USA (Ret.), Executive Director
    Prepared statement of Colonel Williams
National Coalition for Homeless Veterans, John Driscoll, Vice President for Operations and Programs
    Prepared statement of Mr. Driscoll
Saunders, Michelle, Arlington, VA
    Prepared statement of Ms. Saunders
Soldier On (United Veterans of America), John F. Downing, President and Chief Executive Officer
    Prepared statement of Mr. Downing
Veterans Village of San Diego, CA, Phil Landis, Chief Executive Officer
    Prepared statement of Mr. Landis

SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD

American Legion, Ronald F. Chamrin, Assistant Director, Economic Commission, statement
Miller, Hon. Jeff, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida, statement
Salazar, Hon. John T., a Representative in Congress from the State of Colorado
Vietnam Veterans of America, Sandra A. Miller, Chair, Homeless Veterans Committee, statement

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Reports:

CRS Report for Congress, entitled "Veterans and Homelessness," Updated April 4, 2008, Order Code RL34024, by Libby Perl, Analyst in Housing, Domestic Social Policy Division, Congressional Research Service

CRS Report for Congress, entitled "Counting Homeless Persons:  Homeless Management Information Systems," Updated April 3, 2008, Order Code RL33956, by Libby Perl, Analyst in Housing, Domestic Social Policy Division, Congressional Research Service

Post Hearing Questions and Responses for the Record:

Hon. Bob Filner, Committee on Veterans' Affairs, to John Driscoll, Vice President for Operations and Programs, National Coalition for Homeless Veterans, letter dated April 10, 2008, and Mr. Driscoll's responses

Hon. Bob Filner, Committee on Veterans' Affairs, to Libby Perl, Analyst in Housing, Domestic Social Policy Division, Congressional Research Service, letter dated April 10, 2008, and June 5, 2008, responses

Hon. Bob Filner, Committee on Veterans' Affairs, to Michelle Saunders, Veterans Moving Forward, letter dated April 10, 2008, and Ms. Saunders' responses

Hon. Bob Filner, Committee on Veterans' Affairs, to John F. Downing, President/Chief Executive Officer, Soldier On, letter dated April 10, 2008, and June 5, 2008, responses

Hon. Bob Filner, Committee on Veterans' Affairs, to Colonel Charles Williams, USA (Ret.), Executive Director, Maryland Center for Veterans Education and Training, Inc., letter dated April 10, 2008, and Mr. Williams' responses

Hon. Bob Filner, Committee on Veterans' Affairs, to Phil Landis, Chief Executive Officer, Veterans Village of San Diego, letter dated April 10, 2008, and Mr. Landis' responses

Hon. Bob Filner, Committee on Veterans' Affairs, to William G. D'Arcy, Chief Operating Officer, Catholic Charities Housing Development Corporation, letter dated April 10, 2008, and Mr. D'Arcy's responses

Hon. Bob Filner, Committee on Veterans' Affairs, to Hon. James B. Peake, Secretary, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, letter dated April 10, 2008, also transmitting questions from Hon. Ciro D. Rodriguez, and VA responses

ENDING HOMELESSNESS FOR OUR NATION'S VETERANS

Wednesday, April 9, 2008
U. S. House of Representatives,
Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
Washington, DC.

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m., in Room 334, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Bob Filner [Chairman of the Committee] presiding.

Present: Representatives Filner, Hall, Rodriguez, Donnelly, Space, Walz, Brown of South Carolina, and Brown-Waite.

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN FILNER

The CHAIRMAN.  Good morning and welcome to the Committee of Veterans’ Affairs hearing on Ending Homelessness for Our Nation’s Veterans.  We have a lot of competition for attendance today.  General Petraeus is testifying before the Armed Services Committee and many of our Members share membership with that Committee.  And, in addition, one of the parties is holding a caucus meeting at this very moment, so hopefully, they will attend after the caucus is over.  Mr. Brown, thank you for being here with us.

I think we all know that homelessness in America is a national tragedy.  Few people want to face the issues.  Few people want to even look at the homeless.  And if that is a national tragedy, the fact of homeless veterans is, I think, a moral disgrace for this Nation.

This is not what we had in mind when we said we would help veterans, both adjust into civilian society and participate in the American dream.  There are reasons why that occurs, many of which can be dealt with and prevented.  We are going to look at what the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) and community organizations are doing, what we should be doing, and how we further the partnerships between the VA and these organizations.

We see already that the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan have produced homelessness.  We have figures, I am not sure the reliability of them, but about 1,500 homeless veterans from these conflicts is what is now estimated, although, from what I see, statistics always underestimate the extent of the problem.

We have to do a better job of dealing with these new veterans, and of course, the old veterans.  The figures that I see indicate that probably half of the homeless on the street tonight are veterans, mainly from Vietnam.  That is 200,000.  And that is a disgrace.

Many communities have participated in an annual event called Stand Down.  It was started in San Diego, my hometown, in 1987.  I was at the first one.  And what you saw there was an incredible outpouring of community support and a recognition that dealing with the issue is a holistic, multifaceted problem.  Yes, we have to provide housing.  And, yes, we have to provide clothes and food.  We have to provide medical care and dental support, legal advice, alcohol and drug abuse counseling.  All these issues are involved in dealing with the problem.

Stand Down started 20 years ago and as I have said at the last few Stand Downs in San Diego, I am sick of going to Stand Downs, because what we show is that we know how to deal with the problem.  For three days we bring the resources together and people have a sense of security, they have a sense of support, there is a sense of hope and progress.  But it seems to me as a Nation, and what we have a VA for, is to do that 365 days a year.  That is what we should be doing for our homeless veterans.

So, I look forward to the panels this morning from the Department of Veterans Affairs, from community groups, from people who have dealt with this for a long, long time.  Before the first panel I will recognize Ms. Brown-Waite for an opening statement.

[The statement of Chairman Filner appears in the Appendix.]

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. GINNY BROWN-WAITE

Ms. BROWN-WAITE.  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.  Every American should have a safe place to live, and unfortunately, that is not always the case.  We have a serious problem with homelessness in our Nation.  And while this problem is not just specific to veterans, it is deeply troubling that men and women who have served in uniform are over-represented in the homeless population.

I want to thank all of our witnesses who are here today to present their expert views.  Without the dedication and strong advocacy of many of you that have taken the time to be here today, we would not have such a successful program like the Maryland Center for Veterans Education and Training (MCVET) to help homeless veterans.

Several research studies have been taken to determine why so many veterans are homeless, although they have been somewhat inconclusive.  A number of contributing factors have been identified that contribute to a veteran becoming homeless.  First, lack of support upon returning home; substance abuse disorder; inner personal relationships and psychiatric disorders.  While psychiatric disorders are considered a contributing factor, I found it noteworthy the Rosenheck Fontana Study found, “No unique association between combat-related post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and homelessness.”  Similarly, a direct connection between military service and homelessness has not necessarily been found.

In 1987, Congress began a Nationwide effort to end homelessness among veterans with the enactment of Public Law 100-6.  This law provided VA with $5 million for contract residential care and non-domiciliary care for homeless veterans.  Since then, VA’s homeless programs have expanded and grown.  Under the Bush Administration, funding has doubled to an estimated $317 million this fiscal year. 

In addition to programs specifically targeted to help them obtain permanent housing, homeless veterans are also eligible for other VA services such as health and dental care.  In total, VA estimates that it will spend more than $1.6 billion this year to treat homeless veterans.  While actual numbers are difficult to assess, indications are that many of the programs are working.  VA’s latest estimates show that that number of homeless veterans dropped 21 percent this past year, still it is unacceptable that an estimated 154,000 veterans are on the street on any given night.

With the increasing number of returning Operation Enduring Freedom/Operation Iraqi Freedom (OEF/OIF) veterans, it is especially important that we ensure that the VA has adequate resources and that it effectively uses those resources to help veterans reintegrate into society and lead productive lives.  A superb example of such an efficient and effective program lies just a few minutes here up the I-95 corridor.  As I mentioned, Colonel Williams, Executive Director of MCVET is here this morning.  MCVET is a very successful program that provides housing, job training, and mental health and substance abuse counseling to homeless veterans.  Most participants enter the system through an emergency housing unit and leave with permanent housing and a good paying job.

The program utilizes military order and discipline to help veterans get their lives back on track by taking personal responsibility for their future.  In 1997, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) declared MCVET the national model for seamless transition for homeless veterans.

I believe that for a homeless veteran program to be successful, it must go beyond emergency shelters and free hot meals.  We need more programs like MCVET and other programs that we will hear about today.

Solider On, and the Veterans Village of San Diego, strive not only to provide housing and mental health services, but also 21ST century job skills. 

Mr. Chairman, I too, go to the Stand Downs.  And one of the things that we hear in the Florida area is that there are so many homeless veterans living in the National Forest and yet when we have the Stand Downs, I can just share with you that we don’t find that many there.  As a matter of fact, on almost a bi-weekly basis, we have a homeless veteran who comes into our Congressional Office in Brooksville.  We try to get him services.  We try to get him to the clinic.  We have the local VSO come over and counsel him.  And it is very frustrating that he continues to refuse services.  They don’t trust government and that is part of the problem.  Mr. Chairman, I think you and I can probably agree on that.

I look forward to the testimony of all the witnesses here today and yield back the balance of my time.

The CHAIRMAN.  Thank you, Ms. Brown-Waite.  I ask unanimous consent that all Members have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and that written statements be made a part of the record.

Hearing no objection, so ordered.

The CHAIRMAN.  If the first panel will take their seats.  We have with us today John Driscoll who is the Vice President for Operations and Programs at the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans (NCHV).  And he is here to discuss the programs in place to help America’s homeless veterans.

Libby Perl is an Analyst in Housing at the Congressional Research Service (CRS) and will discuss her recent reports, “Veterans and Homelessness,” and “Counting Homeless Persons Homeless Management Information Systems (HMIS).”

And Michelle Saunders is a wounded veteran from Operation Iraqi Freedom who almost became homeless after being discharged from the military.

We look forward to your statements.  Your written statements will be made part of the record.  And if you can summarize their orally, that would be great.  John, thank you for what you do every day.

Mr. DRISCOLL.  Thank you, sir.

STATEMENTS OF JOHN DRISCOLL, VICE PRESIDENT FOR OPERATIONS AND PROGRAMS, NATIONAL COALITION FOR HOMELESS VETERANS; LIBBY PERL, ANALYST IN HOUSING, CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS; AND MICHELLE SAUNDERS, ARLINGTON, VA (VETERAN)

STATEMENT OF JOHN DRISCOLL

Mr. DRISCOLL.  Chairman Filner, distinguished Members of the Committee, the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans is honored to participate in this hearing.  This Committee knows all too well that the price of our freedom necessarily includes tending to the wounds of the men and women who reserve some portion of their lives to preserve it.

I would like to begin our testimony by expressing our sincere thanks and gratitude for the continuing their legacy of this Committee.  For two decades you have engaged in a noble cause that few others have even wanted to acknowledge.  You have asked the tough questions, you have demanded accountability, and you have shouldered this burden before Congress on behalf of the veterans that we represent and you have delivered on your promise.  For all that, to us, you stand first among those who made the successes that I will talk about today possible.

The Homeless Veterans Assistance Program that NCHV represents began in earnest in 1990.  And I am glad to report that the battle has turned in our favor.  This is the first time NCHV has been able to become before this Committee and said that we believe that that is the case.

The partnership with the Departments of Veterans Affairs, Labor, Housing and Urban Development supported by the legislation and funding measures championed by this Committee are community service providers have helped reduce the number of homeless veterans on any given night in America by 38 percent in the last six years.

The VA has presented an estimate of the wounded veterans, homeless veterans to this Committee every year since 1994.  In 2002, that number stood at about 314,000; in 2006 that number had dropped to 194,000.  There are two non-government veteran specific programs serving the men and women who represent nearly a quart of this Nation’s homeless population, and these programs are primarily responsible for this reduction in veteran homelessness.  The VA’s Homeless Providers Grant Per Diem Program and the U.S. Department of Labor's (DOLs) Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program (HVRP) were created in the late 1980s to provide access to service for veterans who were unable to get help from Federally funded mainstream homeless programs.

The Grant Per Diem Program is the foundation of the nationwide VA and community partnership that funds nearly 10,000 service beds in non-VA facilities in every State.  The VA has quadrupled it’s support for this partnership since 2002.  The purpose of the program is to provide stable housing and supportive services necessary to help homeless veterans achieve self sufficiency to the maximum extent possible. Clients are only eligible for this assistance for up to two years and the client progress must be reported to the Grant Per Diem Office quarterly.  All programs are required to connect financial and program performance audits annually.

In September of 2007, after a year long review of this program, the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that an additional 11,000 beds are needed to meet the demand presented by the Nation’s homeless veterans.  The VA concurred with that finding.

We have two recommendations for this program.  The first is to increase the annual appropriation to $200 million.  The projected $137 million in the President’s fiscal year 2009 budget request will increase the number of beds in the program, but not really to the extent that the GAO report has found necessary.

We know that some VA officials would be concerned about the administrative capacity to handle such a large infusion of funding, but we believe that the documented need to do so should drive the debate on this issue.

In 2006, the VA created the position of Grant and Per Diem liaisons to provide additional administrative support.  The VA published a comprehensive program to better instruct the grantees on funding and grant compliance issues.  They expect to provide intensive training for these liaisons. 

Additional funding would increase the number of beds, but it could also increase the level of other services that have been strained by the budget constraints that they have been operating under.  We need more money for drop in centers for homeless veterans.  This is the first line of defense where veterans who feel they need help and are reaching out to somebody are going to be received and embraced and referred to the people who can help take care of their issues before they are threatened with homelessness.

We need more grants for women who now account for 14 percent of the combat personnel operating in Iraq and Afghanistan.  The frail and elderly, which is as the Chairman eluded to the Vietnam veteran generation, we are all getting a little older.

Veterans who are terminally ill and veterans with chronic mental illness need housing supports until the organizations helping them can find other longer-term housing options for them.

The second program is the Department of Labor's Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program, which has been very near and dear to this Committee’s heart.  You know that approximately 14,000 to 16,000 homeless veterans are placed into employment every year at less than $2,000 per placement.  This program expires at the end of fiscal year 2009, Mr. Chairman.  And even though it has been authorized at $50 million a year since 2005, less than half has been appropriated for it.  So to whatever extent possible, we would ask that you could apply a little pressure on behalf of those veterans who need that service.

Which brings us to the question of prevention of veteran homelessness.  Everything that we have accomplished and all the successes that we have made, necessarily points to the next step in this campaign.  The lack of affordable, permanent housing is sited as the number one unmet need of America’s veterans according to the VA Challenge Report.  We commend the work of the HUD and VA to make up to 10,000 HUD/VA supportive housing (HUD-VASH) vouchers available to veterans with chronic health and disability challenges and another increase in equal measure slated for fiscal year 2009.

But the affordable housing crisis extends far beyond the VA healthcare system and it’s community partners.  Once veterans successfully complete their Grant Per Diem Programs, many of these veterans still cannot afford fair market rents, most of them will never be able to afford mortgages, even with the VA home loan guarantee.  They are still essentially at risk of homelessness.

NCHV supports two measures that would address these issues.  The first is a "Veterans Health Care Improvement Act," H.R. 2874, which would provide grants to community and community agencies to provide services to low-income veterans in permanent housing to reduce their risk of homelessness.  The services they would be eligible for would be case management, job counseling and training, transportation assistance, and child care needs.

The second measure would make funds available to increase the availability of affordable housing units for low-income veterans and their families.  The "Homes for Heroes Act," introduced in both the House and the Senate, addresses this issue and NCHV has been privileged to work with staff in both Houses to support this Congressional action.

In summary, most of the historic achievements of this broad coalition now engaged in the campaign to end homelessness among veterans have occurred in just the last six years.  I am pretty emotional about this.  I have been there for most of them.

We believe the next critical step is to develop and implement a prevention strategy that addresses the health and social and economic needs of OIF/OEF veterans before they are threatened with homelessness.

Never before in the history of this country have we concerned ourselves with preventing homelessness during a time of war for our veterans.  For all our collective accomplishments and God willing with your support, I believe this will be our finest hour yet.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The statement of Mr. Driscoll and the VA Challenge Report appear in the Appendix.]

The CHAIRMAN.  Thank you, Mr. Driscoll.  Ms. Perl, we appreciate your being with us this morning.

STATEMENT OF LIBBY PERL

Ms. PERL.  Chairman Filner and Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify here today.  My name is Libby Perl and I am an analyst at the Congressional Research Service.

As requested, in my testimony I will provide a brief summary of the Federal programs that assist homeless veterans, a brief overview of research regarding homeless veterans and funding levels for those programs.  I have submitted a written statement that provides greater detail, for the record.

Comprehensive national research regarding individuals who are homeless that includes detailed information about homeless veterans is rare.  So much of the information researchers have relied on dates back to surveys from the 1980s and the 1990s.  Despite this, each major study that has attempted to estimate veterans as a percentage of the homeless population has found that veterans are over represented among homeless individuals.

What has been found is that male veterans are between 1.25 and 1.38 times as likely to be homeless as non-veterans and women veterans are estimated to between 2.7 and 3.6 times as likely to be homeless as women who are not veterans.  These estimates do not include veterans from the recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Congress has created a number of programs targeted specifically to homeless veterans.  There are three major categories of programs for homeless veterans that I will cover.  First, permanent supportive housing; second, transitional housing; and third programs that provide services of some kind.  I will describe five of these programs.

First, the category of permanent housing.  The only program that provides permanent supportive housing specifically for homeless veterans, that is, housing with no time limit together with various supportive services is administered through a collaboration between the VA and HUD called HUD-VASH and John mentioned it in his testimony.

Homeless veterans receive Section 8 vouchers for permanent housing, while VA provides supportive services.  With Section 8 vouchers, veterans find apartments or rental units in the private market and pay about 30 percent of their income toward rent.  Currently, there are somewhere around 1,000 HUD-VASH vouchers that were made available to veterans back in the early 1990s.  However, in the fiscal year 2008 Appropriations Act, an additional $75 million was appropriated for HUD-VASH vouchers which HUD estimates will fund about 9,800 vouchers.  And the President has also requested $75 million more for fiscal year 2009 for another 9,800 vouchers. 

The next category, transitional housing, is time limited depending on the program.  The idea is for individuals in the transitional housing to have some time to get on their feet and find permanent housing.  The Homeless Providers Grant and Per Diem Program that John mentioned is the major program for transitional housing for homeless veterans.  The Grant and Per Diem Program allows veterans to stay in the housing for up to 24 months and also provides supportive services.  The Grant and Per Diem Program typically receives the most funding of any program targeted to homeless veterans and serves more than 15,000 veterans a year.

In the area of healthcare, the VA operates two programs that provide healthcare assessments and treatment for homeless veterans.  The two programs, Health Care for Homeless Veterans and Domiciliary Care for Homeless Veterans, assess and treat a large percentage of veterans who have mental health and substance abuse issues. 

In the Health Care for Homeless Veterans Program, VA Medical Care staff conduct outreach to homeless veterans who don’t typically use VA medical services and then they provide clinical assessments and referrals for treatment.  In 2006, of the nearly 61,000 Health Care for Homeless Veterans participants, 82 percent had a serious psychiatric or substance abuse issue.

The Domiciliary Care for Homeless Veterans Program is a little different in that residents live on site while receiving treatment.  In fiscal year 2006 veterans stayed in domiciliary care an average of 104 days and of the nearly 5,300 veterans who were admitted to domiciliary care programs, almost 93 percent were diagnosed with a substance abuse disorder, and more than half, about 57 percent, were diagnosed with serious mental illness.

In the area of employment services, the Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program administered through the Department of Labor provides grants to organizations that help homeless veterans find and maintain employment.  In fiscal year 2006, HVRP placed about 8,700 veterans in employment, which was 65 percent of those who entered the program.

In 2001, a Demonstration Program through the Department of Labor and the VA was funded to provide job training for veterans who were leaving prison or other institutions.  Before the authorization expired in fiscal year 2006, the program helped 1,100 veterans find employment, which was about 54 percent of those who entered the program.

I will conclude briefly with funding levels.  There is a table attached to my statement that will provide more detail.  In fiscal year 2008, about $317 million is expected to be either obligated or appropriated for these programs that I have described and a few others that I didn’t mention.  And that does not include the cost of the HUD-VASH vouchers that I discussed and it doesn’t include the treatment cost of homeless veterans, such as hospital stays and long term care.

As I mentioned, there is table attached and it will provide breakdowns of funding by program over the years.  This concludes my remarks.  Thanks, again, for the opportunity to speak here today and I would be happy to answer your questions.

[The statement of Ms. Perl appears in the Appendix.  The CRS Reports for Congress, authored by Ms. Perl, entitled "Veterans and Homelessness," Updated April 4, 2008, Order Code RL34024, and "Counting Homeless Persons:  Homeless Management Information Systems," Updated April 3, 2008, Order Code RL33956, also appear the Appendix under Reports.]

The CHAIRMAN.  Thank you, Ms. Perl.  Ms. Saunders, we appreciate your being here and it takes some courage to tell personal stories, so thank you for sharing with us.

STATEMENT OF MICHELLE SAUNDERS

Ms. SAUNDERS.  Sir, thank you.  Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, I just want to take this opportunity to thank you all for allowing me to speak about my personal experiences and for the veterans that have come before me and after me.

I am coming from a little bit different perspective.  I am not here to talk about how successful our programs are.  I am here to basically talk about why they are not successful in my eyes, and why I think there is a lot of systemic issues that are not being addressed.  We talk about programs that exist right now for homelessness and there are many issues that happen prior to them becoming homeless.  And those, I think, are the issues that we have got to address.

My story, basically, is that I was wounded in Iraq in 2004.  I spent 22 months at Walter Reed rehabilitating.  Through that time, I was promised many different jobs and opportunities and I latched on to that.  Maybe I was being a little bit naive, but I thought because I served my country for ten years that I was going to have a great job when I got out of the military.

The fact of the matter is that it was very, very hard to, especially in this town, to find a job.  Being a servicemember that had ten years of experience, I thought that I wouldn’t have a problem at all.  After almost 19 months I sat many nights with a loaded gun saying that I wasn’t worth anything, because I didn’t know who to turn to and I was too prideful to talk to my family about what was going on.  I was dealing with a lot of post traumatic stress, a lot of survivors guilt and just didn’t know what to do.  Didn’t know where to go and I just knew that I just wanted to be out of the military and get away from all the bureaucracy that was going on through my transition.

After I retired in May of 2006, I finally I got a job by the grace of God, through the Department of Labor because I had called them every single day, probably about five times a day, until they finally said, “Why don’t you come down here.  We will find you a job.”

Ironically, I got a job working as an employment specialist to help other transitioning servicemembers.  When I got into that job, I realized that I was really excited to get into the trenches and try to help my brothers and sisters who were transitioning.  A lot of things happened.  At first I was very excited and then I started to realize that how our successes in our programs were measured were based on numbers, not on quality of service, which was very frustrating to me because you don’t measure success on a number.  If I have 25 people that I am putting into a database just because I met with them and said, “Okay, fine.”  That was a success.

There are five major components that have to happen simultaneously that are not happening.  And basically, they stem from identifying the servicemembers first.  Identifying those who are coming back, informing them.  Assessing their issues, assisting them and monitoring them.  We have many, many different agencies right now doing multiple duplications of this. 

For six months while I was at Walter Reed, they had no clue where I was.  It took them six months to find me after two extensive surgeries and multiple sessions of counseling.  Finally, six months later, somebody came to me and said, “Where have you been?  Why haven’t you been to formation?  Well, sir, sorry I was incapacitated.  I was in surgery.”

I apologize for being all over the board.  I have so much to say and sometimes I just get a little overwhelmed.  We must ensure that our transition programs are better.  Our transition programs right now basically are folks that are going through a transition assistance program are forced to go to a class for two days.  Most of our men and women that have been wounded are on multiple medications, they are not going to retain a whole lot.  They have been in medical treatment facilities for “X” amount of months.  All they want to do is go home.  They want to be with their families.

Most of them are receiving a Traumatic Servicemembers Group Life Insurance (TSGLI) policy from anywhere to $25,000 up to $100,000 payout.  As a 20-year-old kid and $100,000 I don’t care who are and how much counseling or how much financial counseling you have had, you are going to misspend that money.  You are going to misuse that money. 

A lot of our servicemembers are going into debt so they are not thinking that they are not going to have a job when they get out.  They got TSGLI, they are drawing Social Security Disability Insurance while they are in the medical treatment facilities.  It is the last thing on their mind is getting a job and being able to take care of themselves when they get out.  So they are not taking that proactive approach, because they don’t know any better.

It is a huge problem.  It is a huge problem that our military or our U.S. Department of Defense cannot identify folks because there are multiple databases, are multiple months of information going into databases, and a lot of it is anecdotal so they can’t find these folks when they get out.  When they leave the military installations and the get put into a temporary retirement status, they put them into CVHCOs which are civilian based health organizations and completely forget about them.  That is an issue, because by the time we find them, we are reading about them in the paper or watching them on the news.

So identifying is a really big issue right now.  Another big issue that we are running into is the lack of continuum of care through basically the VA and some of the programs.  You know, if you are not completely blown up and you don’t have a visible wound, then you go to the back of the list.  Basically, you are on the bottom of the pile because we can’t identify what is wrong with you.

Some of these programs are reactive programs as opposed to proactive programs.  Like, for instance, I know that the American Legion hire or not hire heroes, hometown to heroes.  In order for them to help you, you have to already be in a homeless situation in order to be able to get provided grant money to help your family through these programs or through these problems you have to literally have to be homeless before they can help you.

The criteria for some of these programs is completely backwards and we are working in a vacuum and we are putting it basically, "a band-aid on a sucking chest wound."  And so I guess I am here more to talk about the systemic issues and to try to prevent homelessness as opposed to cleaning up the mess that is already out there and it is getting worse.

And so that is kind of what I have to say.

[The statement of Ms. Saunders appears in the Appendix.]

The CHAIRMAN.  Thank you.  Thank you for sharing that with us.  It gives a lot of information.

Mr. Rodriguez, you have dealt with this issue in the civilian world and as a Congressman.  We thank you for your leadership.  And you have five minutes to address the panel.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ.  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.  I just had the Secretary of the VA over to San Antonio to visit us.  We took him to one of the few homeless shelters that we have there through the American GI Forum and they seem to be doing a pretty good job.  But it is a small program in comparison to the need that is out there. 

I wanted to ask a couple of things.  Ms. Saunders, thank you very much for your testimony.  You talked about how there is a need for us to do some prevention in advance and not after, picking up the person after they become homeless.  I was wondering, Mr. Driscoll, if the VA is engaged in home healthcare, where we reach out and work with the family in any way at the present time?

Mr. DRISCOLL.  Well, I am sure that they can fill you in better than that.  What I do know is the VA Readjustment Counseling Centers Vet Centers, their purpose is to help be that first line of defense for combat veterans who feel strains, need help finding what access to whatever services they need, whether it is educational, whether it is housing supports.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ.  But we do not provide any home healthcare that you are aware of?  Because I know we provide it under Medicare, Medicaid, Medicare Advantage.  And I am just talking about that because I just had a group of home healthcare professionals come over, and it seems like it might be a program that might be able to reach out before that person gets, thrown out or finds himself out of the picture. 

Mr. DRISCOLL.  Right.  I am not aware of anything in that regard.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ.  Okay.  You mentioned the drop in centers.  How many do we have, throughout the country?  Do we know?

Mr. DRISCOLL.  Well, formally I could not answer that.  I know that members of NCHV almost all of them to some degree have an open door policy.  You come in and we will help you.  You know, a lot of the communities where those organizations operate, the word gets around.  Homeless people talk to other homeless people.  VA used to fund those through the Grant and Per Diem funding on a higher level, and I may be misspeaking so I do not want to do that.  But I do know that on the last few grant cycles for the Grant and Per Diem they have not been able to increase funding for the drop in centers. 

Mr. RODRIGUEZ.  The drop in centers?

Mr. DRISCOLL.  Right.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ.  Ms. Perl, I know you mentioned jails, and I was glad because I never hear those comments and sometimes I feel like I am the only one who is mentioning this issue.  I do not have any statistics to show this, but I think that a lot of our Vietnam veterans in the process of trying to deal with their post traumatic stress, self-medicated and found themselves taking illegal drugs and found themselves in jail.  You mentioned a program that was working with them.  Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Ms. PERL.  There are a couple programs that I mentioned.  The Domiciliary Care for Homeless Veterans Program is run onsite at VA Medical Centers and veterans are able to stay there, not in the hospital but in residential care and receive treatment while living in the facilities for substance abuse issues or mental healthcare.  As I mentioned, veterans stay in those facilities generally a little over 100 days based on the most recent estimates that I have from the VA. 

And the other one, Healthcare for Homeless Veterans, is more of an outreach program to try to find those veterans who are out there who are not coming into the VA maybe for the treatment of substance abuse issues and mental healthcare.  And the VA does outreach, brings them in, does clinical assessment, and then refers for treatment.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ.  I know, and I think it was indicated that we do not have good research to identify homeless veterans.  There are questions as to the numbers that are out there based on the new way of determining who is homeless and who is not and how many are out there.  And I recall very distinctly, because I taught a class in community mental health, the largest number of people, because I used to take people to the private sector, the public sector, and one of the things I taught my students is that the largest number of the mentally ill were in our prisons.  And I presume that that is still the case, in some of those areas.  But there has got to be a way of not only dealing with the ones that are in there now as they are released.  Maybe coming up with some programs, Ms. Saunders, where we can reach out so that it does not happen in the first place.  I do not know if you want to comment on that. 

Ms. SAUNDERS.  Yes sir, I do, actually.  The way, the problem is is that, and this is from my perspective, and I am part of this generation.  And I think anybody that has been, who has ever served can attest to, we have the same exact issues as we did when folks came back from Vietnam.  The problem is is that there was never a place to go after they leave the gates of the installations.  There was not an environment created for them to go to be able just to breathe. 

A lot of people do not realize that when you go through a traumatic event like that, especially if you have a family, when you come home you are expected, you know, you get a pat on the back and you are expected to go out there and, you know, be productive in society.  But what happens is when you go through something traumatic like that, we live in a society where murder is not normal, where killing is not normal.  And so when you see things like that and you commit things like that, whether it is time of war or not, your spirit is broken.  Your whole family as a unit is broken.  And people are not understanding that.  So when you come back you are forced to go out and find a job, go out and find a job, go out and find a job in order to take care of your family.  But you cannot do that because you are stuck.  You are stuck in a place where you are just broken and you do not know how to heal. 

So you just continue to shove it down, and shove it down, and shove it down, because you have other responsibilities to take care of, meaning your family, or you have to be productive in society because there are those things called bills that we have to pay.  And so when you stuff all that down inside, it comes out of you.  It surfaces later on and severe things happen.  You fall into severe depression.  You turn to alcohol, you turn to drugs because that is the only thing you know how to do, is to be numb because you do not want to feel.  So there is not an environment created yet out there for that after you leave the gates of the installation.  And it is the last stop for the next 10,000 miles and a lot of people get lost in that. 

I am in the process of developing a program right now.  I started a foundation started Veterans Moving Forward.  And what we do is we want to provide that continuum of care, that rehabilitation, that drug and alcohol counseling, but also have that educational component attached to it.  Because when something like that happens you lose your self-worth.  You do not know what you are worth anymore because the only thing you knew is what you did in the military.  And you wore that uniform and you wore it proud.  So when you lose that you are completely stripped of all your pride.  So to rehabilitate is key, but we have to create that environment first.  And that goes with transitional housing, rehabilitation, drug and alcohol, and education to give them another skill. 

Mr. RODRIGUEZ.  Thank you very much.  I do want to just thank the whole panel.  And Mr. Chairman, if I can, I know one other item that was brought up and it keeps bothering me.  The fact that we have had a good 3,000 that have committed suicide while in the military just recently.  And a good number, or higher, outside of the military.  And when they commit suicide, and that just came to mind in terms of what you experienced when you were at night by yourself  with the depression that you talked about.  Having that gun and, and sometimes playing with it, we really need to look at how we treat the veterans that, the soldiers I should say, that have committed suicide while in the military.

I had a young lady who committed suicide, or supposedly committed suicide, while she was in Iraq.  And she got treated by our veterans and by the system extremely rudely.  The family gets no benefits whatsoever.  And I would hope that, when they commit suicide, afterwards it is a different situation, but it is still the same.  And so we really need to, I do not know what the answer is, look into this and how we can come to grips with it because we do not want to encourage that treatment while they are in the military.  But at the same time we need to see how we can deal with it in a manner that is more just, to both those that are in the military as well as those that are out of the military in terms of the benefits that they might be entitled to and other things.  And now I am talking more in terms of the family, also, that are left behind.  And thank you very much. Yes ma’am?

Ms. SAUNDERS.  May I address that?  Is that possible?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ.  If the Chairman would allow.

The CHAIRMAN.  Yes.

Ms. SAUNDERS.  Again, going back to some of the systemic issues I know we went through that being at Walter Reed.  There is a real inability for the services, the service components, all of them, to admit that post traumatic stress is an issue.  Coming from a battalion commander down or a brigade commander down, if that commander stands in front of his trooper and says, “Hey look it is okay to go through what you are going through right now.  What you saw was not normal.”  That message is not being put out.  And until that message is put out there is going to be a stigma.  And my brother and my sister to the left and right of me are going to look at me different if I bring that to the surface.

So again, you hide it.  You do not want your peers to know, especially if you are going to be retained on active duty, because you are going to look at as, oh, as one of those.  That is a huge, huge problem.  And until our military stands up and addresses that as an issue, that will never, ever go away. 

The CHAIRMAN.  Thank you.  Mr. Boozman?

Mr. BOOZMAN.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I agree, Ms. Saunders, you know we have really got some problems in getting this thing sorted out.  I believe very strongly, I am the Ranking Member on the Economic Opportunity, and a lot of these problems can be averted if we can get people where they can make a living wage along with solving the other problems that you are talking about.  But you mentioned the Transition Assistance Program (TAP), and that is a pretty good program.  You know, we worked hard and the people that administer that are good people and they are working hard to try to give good information.  But it is difficult.  You mentioned that they do not, you know, that they want to go home.  You know, they are not really interested in getting the information.  So, I mean, I think everyone would be willing to work with different ways of delivering that information, perhaps.  But it really is a challenge. 

You mentioned the fact that a person gets a large sum of money.  And, again, that is a problem whether you win the lottery, it is a problem if you are an athlete and all of a sudden you are successful, or a movie star, or whatever.  You know, those really are core problems that are difficult to solve.  So like I said, I guess I would be very interested in, rather than doing the two-day TAP Program, how would we do that differently?

Ms. SAUNDERS.  I actually am in the process of implementing a program, a pilot program at Walter Reed, a three-phase program to facilitate those needs.  Again, like I said, you know, we are dealing with a different population right now in terms of, for the first time in our history of any war the American people are pushing back and saying, “What is going on?  Why are we not taking care of our veterans?”  And the fact of the matter is, we are.  It is just there are so many out there that have already fallen through the cracks and now we are working in a vacuum. 

We are in a position where we are dealing with servicemembers who have been severely wounded, both emotionally and physically.  Their time and stay in the military treatment facilities are, you know, a tremendous amount of months.  Again, I was there for twenty-two months.  There are folks that are still there today when I was there.  Again, the last thing on their mind is finding a job.  Especially if they are, and I hate to say this, and a lot of them are entitled to some of the monetary grants and funds that they are receiving right now.  But when you are sitting in an outpatient room and you are drawing VAH and you are drawing Social Security Disability Insurance, and you are drawing traumatic group life insurance, and you are drawing any kind of grant that you can get your hands on because there are multiple programs out there that will give money, grant money, based on what their physical disability or emotional disability is, I sit there and I say, “Well, I am making $6,000, $7,000 a month.  Why the heck would I want to work right now?”  That is a huge problem.  There is a lot of push back because of that.  And that is our generation, that we have got to take care of.  I mean, there is a societal need right now to take care of them because we are giving them hand outs.  We are not giving them hand ups.  I would rather show somebody the way than take them there. 

Mr. BOOZMAN.  I do not disagree.  I mean, the reality is, is how do you do that?  And I am the guy that would like very much as they rehabilitate physically, and mentally, and the other stuff, but you know, to get them busy starting their education, almost immediately.  You know, doing things like that.  But again, along with that you do have to figure out how to get the person themselves to want to do that.  That is our challenge.  And I think that is really what you are saying.

Ms. SAUNDERS.  Well, that is what I have, I have been working very, very hard on trying to pilot this program. And basically what it is is, the phase one starts out as a corporate immersion.  I have gotten over 200 companies across the country, most of them are Fortune 500 companies, that are willing to work with these guys.  And I drive home to them, I say, “Look, this is a mentorship.  We have got to mentor these folks.  We cannot just create jobs for them and put them in a job where they are not going to grow.  We have to mentor them and show them that they are worth something and they are able to grow.”  So that phase one is actually at the military treatment facility.  And my ultimate goal is to be able to incorporate that as part of the TAP program.  To get these guys stimulated, to get them out of their rooms, to get them out there and engaging in the communities.  And that is where it is going to happen, is at the community levels.  Because like I said, once they leave the gates of the installation, that is it.

So if we can do that as a phase one, and then the phase two being a week-long mentor program.  I have already started it.  It is called Operation Real Transition, to take them out of that environment again, work them in the team environment with peers that are going through exactly the same things that they are going through.  So that they can talk and they have mentors there at any time that they need to talk.  Go through, we do mock interviews, we do the right questions to ask during, an interview and basically what it is like to be in the corporate environment, what it is like to get out there and work.  And then once they find out, “Wow, I could do this.”  Or, “Wow, I did not know that I had this ability or these skill sets.”  Then they say, a light goes on and they say, “Oh, okay, now I am motivated and I want to work.” 

And then obviously the phase three would be the facility, the transitional housing facility, if they want to work but they want to go to school at the same time.  Or they just want to go to school and continue their care and rehabilitation.  Give them a skill, make them marketable, for the 21st century workforce. 

Mr. BOOZMAN.  Can I ask one more thing, Mr. Chairman?  I know I am running over the clock again.  You are a bright gal that presents yourself very well today.  You mention that you have been in the military for ten years and you really had a tough time finding a job.  And what was, what do you feel like was the reason for that?  I mean, were you in an age group, or this or that, or did you not have the skills that you needed that they were looking for?  Was it the fact that you had been injured or been in the military?  Or, I mean all of those things, you know when I talk to corporate America, many of those things are a plus.  I mean, they are, you know, but what in your particular case, how could we have prepared a ten-year person like yourself to be more employable?

Ms. SAUNDERS.  Personally, I was scared.  I was scared to go to an employer and, granted I sent my resume out there, but I was scared to go interview because I did not know, I had the hard skills but I did not have the soft skills.  And that is what corporate America is looking for.  They are looking for the soft skills.  The hard skills are easy.  You know, there are training curves and learning curves, but it is the soft skills that are really, really hard.  And that is the whole intent and purpose of mentoring these guys and girls, is to show them what it is like to be in a corporate environment.  You know, you cannot say certain things in a corporate environment that you would to your buddy sitting in your uniform.  And it is that simple.  It is such a simple, simple thing.  But that is honestly the biggest step, over that threshold.  Folks are just scared.  They are very intimidated.  They do not know the right questions to ask.  They do not know how to act.  So that it is up to us as veterans, ambassadors, to help them through that process.

Mr. BOOZMAN.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN.  Mr. Donnelly, do you have any questions? 

Mr. DONNELLY.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  One of the concerns that I have is the number of OEF/OIF veterans that are already starting to show up at the homeless shelters.  And what I am wondering, if any of you can help, is what are the steps you think we need to take now to try to provide for the veterans so they do not reach that point where they come to the homeless shelters?  What are the things we are missing that have caused these veterans to arrive? 

Ms. SAUNDERS.  Can I answer that?

Mr. DONNELLY.  Wide open.

Ms. SAUNDERS.  I think that is basically what I have been saying, you know, for the past ten minutes or so.  It is we have to be proactive, or we have to get them before they get out of the gates.  What is happening is, is that they are falling through the cracks.  And after they leave the military we cannot catch them.  Some of them do not want to be found.  As Ms. Brown-Waite said earlier, you know, there are folks out there that they do not want to be approac